I can't do anything but agree with what you are saying, Xie.
I haven't been over to Midnight Whispers recently. Doesn't sound good at all.

It's not just about that site, it's about the constant accusation that speaking out against something someone else has said, or written, is a form of censorship on that person.

Words lose their meaning when their misuse isn't challenged. If someone thinks being "censored" is just another word for "being disagreed with," then what word do we use for REAL censorship?

Will you believe me when I tell you the sky is falling?

Sigh.

K, having been through wank wars and critique/concrit vs flaming, I realize that when you post to a public site, to have to be ready for this. You have to. Not everyone is gonna like what you write. You can have a thousand "u r the best, plz write more, i luv u" reviews, but one honest "hey, you might want to consider this in the future" review can make a difference.

Nobody is saying don't write your story, your story is your own, but be ready to take the good reviews with the not so good. If you want to improve as a writer, take that concrit under advisement. Believe me, it can change a mediocre story into a damn good one. I ought to know.

I don't really care that our comments are being yanked, it's the owner's site and she should do whatever she wants.

No, what I object to is being told that MY opposing speech is a form of censorship on the speech I'm opposing. That is dangerous, wrong, bullshit.

The remedy for speech you don't like is MORE SPEECH.

Love that.

I don't use any of the fic sites that aren't part of LJ, so I missed a lot of this drama, fortunately.

Oh, it's on LJ.

Feedback for a piece of art, be it literature, a painting, music, it's called review.

I am a writer of fanfiction, and I love feedback.

If someone takes the time and effort to give their detailed view of a writer's/artist's work the writer/artist should be glad and grateful. Of course, any comment on art is a great deal subjective. But a good reviewer will not only give their opinion on whether the piece in question does anything for them on an emotional level, but also comment on technique and oportunities for improvement.

I have been lucky to get a lot of constructive criticism for my stories, which without doubt resulted in an improved quality of my stories over time. Sharing my work for me means learning from constructive inputs. I want to become a better writer.

Anyone who can't appreciate reviews other than "omg!!11eleven!! thats so hawt! update soon!!1" is not interested in becoming a better writer, IMO.

Not knowing the site or writer you refer to, I totally agree with you on the matter.

Well, the criticism went well beyond saying the story sucked... you can read more here if you're interested.

But whatever someone thinks of this controversy, my point still stands, that my speech in which I criticize your speech isn't itself censorship.

Premise

I didn't read the story you're talking about. I rarely read AU stories - unless they're extremely well written by an author I already know and love - and these days I barely have time to read at all (still have to read some of your stuff...bear with me).

But:

If someone removes my post from their website, I am being censored, although it's the website owner's right to do that... nonetheless, I'm being silenced.

I disagree.

Imagine this situation (and I'm going a bit extreme here, but I'm trying to make a point):
a group of Nazi follower publish a magazine about how Hitler was such a good man and the KKK was the best group ever. They leave a copy of the magazine in every public place they can find... bars, restaurants, shops, etc...and they leave a copy in your restaurant (yes, you have a restaurant *g*).

Now...what do you do when you see it? You take it away and burn it while doing the "happy dance of joy". Also, you pay someone big and scary (much like the security guy of SLS) to stay by the door and beat them up scare away Nazi guys entering your place.
Are you actually censoring them?

Personally, I don't think so. You're not actively doing anything to stop their work or even the diffusion of said work. You just don't want your place to be the medium used to spread it.

/semantics

Man, you can totally see that I'm bored out of my fucking mind at work... ;))

I absolutely believe, and said, that the website owner can do whatever he or she wants. No one owes me being published.

But to say my criticism is a form of censorship and then SIMULTANEOUSLY remove my criticism? I mean... it boggles the mind.

Xie

LOL! Just a little bit.

Before replying I didn't know the context in which this discussion was being debated.

I agree with you on the basic meaning of what is and isn't censorship. I also agree that a website owner has the right to take down whatever they please from that site. However, I wonder if the owner in question has really considered what that means for the integrity of the whole review system there. If only the positive reviews get to stay, it's just stupid to have a review system at all. Plus the writers have been deprived of a way to get realistic feedback to improve their writing. And if you are going to put something out here, a story, an idea, a drawing, whatever, you should be prepared to take the good with the bad. How you react to the good and the bad says something about your character as a person.
There is a lot of things wrong with this whole situation, but it is good that we are discussing it. Go Free Speech and all that.

LIBEL. ONE WORD. LIBELOUS. What you and your ilk have been writing is LIBELOUS, it stated that EVERYONE is, whether writing or reading, pedophiles. The person posting(and all of you) have NO legitimate proof that this is a fact; therefore, it is understandable that the site owner would delete said comments, they are spurious and inexcusable.

That might matter if, you know, someone had said someone other than Prian, a fictional character, was a pedophile.

If Prian wants to sue me for libel, certainly bring it on.

I would explain to you what is wrong with your statement from a legal standpoint, but then I would have to send you a real big bill.
And yes, I said the above in my most snarky attorney voice.

Hey Xie. I was going to post my thoughts on that in my journal later. Great minds huh?

I think that freedom is a privilege and should not be abused. Although I moved away from the close knit community that upholds the cultural norms and value systems from where it migrated, I occasionally still have to conform at family gatherings. Social control is very strongly enforced, and repercussions don't stop with the person at fault.

Let me tell you it is like a shock to the system that makes me thank my lucky stars every time I leave. So I think that you should be able to say what you want but also that you should have the stuff to back it up. Freedom is not a license to be purposefully abusive and offensive. That's not to say that they should be censored. Just I think it's an abuse of that freedom.

I actually try and expose myself to views that I don't agree with, but I try to be objective. To see where the other party is coming from. That's why I meant that anything spouted should be backed up by fact.

I did read somewhere on my Flist a reference to soya inducing homosexuality. Soya does cause estrogen production. But you'd have to be ingesting massive amounts of it. Like that poor vegetarian bodybuilder who started growing tits. Ha ha. I kinda veered of on a tangent there didn't I? But facts are facts.

My journal isn't censored or locked. I would only do that with censorship in relation to adult material. Children should be allowed to be children.

And critique so totally is not censorship. Forced silence is.

Okay... Now I have the context. Pheew.

Using your free speech to point out that the content of the fictional story was inappropriate, to say the least, was not wrong.

To boil it down to it's simplest form, you did a service. You reminded the writer and the story's followers that this sort of behavior is not accepted by society. Such deviant subcultural groups come together, and unchallenged by their peers, start to think that it is acceptable. In their little world it is. So no one in their group questions it. Immersing themselves in such company they start to think that it's okay.

Causing a ruckus and reminding these people that this is not accepted by society as a whole is good.

I have the viewpoint of a mother figure here. And that's why infantilizing Justin squicks the hell outta me.

In general, I think causing a ruckus, as long as it's substantive and not just wank, is a good thing. ;)

Bunny and you (and others who voiced the same opinion) are absolutely right and thank god for people who think this way!

I read the first chapter of the fic in question but didn't like it. As Bunny said, why would Brian be attracted to someone he cannot even speak with? After that, I didn't read the following chapters and after reading Bunny's post, I'm grateful for my decision. What frightens me the most about the whole thing is that the writer is a mother of an autistic child on her own...

I admit that I visit Midnight Whispers from time to time because I've found some fics over there that I enjoyed and haven't seen on LJ. To be honest, I haven't been a big fan of the owner of the site, mostly because she writes a lot of fics but never puts an OOC warning on them even though her stories aren't about canon Brian and Justin, but that's another story.

I can understand it when you say that it's her site and she can do anything she wants with it but I personally find it wrong that she removed those feedbacks she found offensive. It's a public site, you don't even have to register to leave a feedback so I think this should mean that all kinds of opinions can be shared. What's the point in the whole thing if just the 'nice' feedbacks can stay?

I feel disgusted that there are stories like this fic in this fandom, it gets a lot of feedback, the writer posts a public note to defend her story and the site's owner encourages her and makes sure to silence those who speak up against it.

*is upset*

*goes to read good fics*

That about sums it up!

I'm writing this without reading what anyone else has commented because I don't want the influence of their opinions but as one who has, to some minor degree, been commented negatively on by you and to a greater degree by alicesprings and happier bunny, in her case not for a story but for a comment in a discussion, I admit that while you are right, any and all of you expressing your disagreeing opinions about someone's story, or story idea, isn't censorship it can, and in my case has, cause self-censorship on the part of the writer.

I don't take any of this nearly as seriously as many do, I was hoping it would be fun and while being on lj for the past two and a half months, has been, what I find especially interesting is that while I got a bunch of really encouraging feedbacks on my December qaf challenge story, what I responded to was what you and alicesprings said, in other words, the criticism.

I'm not as adamant as you xie, about any of it, I'm really not, I just wanted this to be fun and a way to connect positively with other people but now when I write, in the back of my mind is worry, what little thing, that I'm not even aware of, are they going to spite on me about.

Maybe I am over reacting but I really never expected to be told that Brian would NEVER do this or that, that he would never wear this or that, or say this or that. I never expected to be told my vision of Brian or Justin or Emmett or Ted or any of them is less valid then someone elses or real or just plain wrong.

I like you xie, I vaue your opinion but I shouldn't write MY story worrying about what you may think of it and now I find that's what I'm doing.

Censoring? Yeah...I think it is.

It's been over a week and alicesprings' emailed comments on my story still sit in my inbox waiting for me to reply to her. Maybe if we all were as confident as you seem to be, we could just shrug off the criticism and move on and ultimately, that's what I'll probably do but what you say has consequences and soometimes I would imagine, those consequences are not what you would ever have intended.

Listen, Gael, I know what you're saying. You're saying that something I said stuck in your head, and now it's inhibiting you.

But that's not censorship, at least not on my part. If there is a censor, it's inside your own mind.

If you are suggesting that I moderate my own expression, change my tone, or inhibit MYSELF, because it might influence someone who will then inhibit herself ... well, why should I inhibit myself to save you from inhibiting yourself? Isn't it more reasonable for you to learn how to not be inhibited by external criticism, but instead learn to evaluate it appropriately?

The VERY MINOR concrit I posted on your challenge fic, accompanied by some major positive feedback, is pretty much the only concrit I've EVER posted. I have now also expressed profound dislike of one other fic, Kiss Me Alright, for reasons that I think are important enough to justify being so negative in public.

Any other negative comments I may have made about fics in comment sections, and I'm not sure I HAVE made any beyond saying something wasn't for me... and usually NOT because it wasn't good, but because it deals with themes or plotlines I don't care to read, such as death fics.... well, they have been few and far between.

My comments on things like OOC or Justin's tiny hands, are just general comments. If they inhibit you (and I'm not saying they are, I'm speaking in general terms now), when I am not even TALKING about you or your fiction.... can't you see that if I didn't say them out of fear it might cause someone, somewhere, who I wasn't even talking about or thinking of, to feel inhibited, that would be at least as bad, and IMO far worse, than the self-censorship you're saying results from my expressing my opinions?

CONTINUED NEXT POST, DAMN LJ

Well, I like words and I like it best when people know the meaning of the words they use, and "criticism" and "censorship" ARE NOT synonyms. The end.

And of course, the owner of any site can choose what to allow on their site. I don't care about that. I'd just rather they be honest and say, "I didn't like what this person said and so I'm removing it because it's my site and I can do whatever I want. Neener neener and so there."

I feel like I just opened a box of cupcakes for a children’s birthday party, only to find a skanky, used condom mixed in with the treats. It’s a shame that this tainted piece of fiction is mixed in with other fine stories.

I was completely unaware of this story, or of the controversy surrounding it, but thank you to all who stood up, spoke out and generally made an effort to bring enlightenment to this situation. God knows there are few individuals over there who could use an extra boost up the evolutionary ladder.

Thanks - I feel pretty strongly on the freedom of expression issue, for fiction authors as well as for opinion, criticism, commentary, daydreaming in your journal, whatever. It transcends, for me, even the subject that triggered this particular debate.

And it was happier_bunny, not me, who took a public stand on this fic, although I agree with every word she said. She deserves all the credit for that!

I just wanted to add my 2 cents to this discussion about censorship and alike. I am Russian and not that young not to remember what does it actually mean to be censored... Fortunately our country doesn't live anymore under the pressure of dictatorship! But believe me, guys, you will never ever would want to feel what does it mean political or let me say a censorship of a government when you forced to be silent about certain things with a fear to get in a jail or be kicked out of your country where you was born and grown up. And I am talking not only about time after so-called October Revolution. Russia (and saying Russia I mean her government) always censored her citizens back to thousand years of her history.

Your experience that you wrote about is surely a censorship of a lesser degree but still an attempt of shutting down an opinion that is different from author's. The punishment of course is not time in a jail, but being sort of expelled from the site in a way of deleting comments.

I am disappointed in people in countries which claim to have freedom of speech and so on who does it for their fellow readers or writers because I know what is it to be silent and afraid because of disagreement with censors' opinion.

That was my 2 cents *)) Sorry for to be long in my comment!

I realize I'm a bit late commenting, but I wanted you to know that...

ITA!

As a graduate with a degree in Broadcast Journalism/Communications this is everything I could possibly say on the subject.

I can't answer your hypothetical, because I would never do that and think it's a big waste of time and totally pointless.

I objected to this fic on ethical and moral grounds, not as a fic. I didn't "hate it," I had a principled objection to it. I wanted to engage in a free exchange of ideas about something with people, in the hope they'd gain a different perspective on the material. Of if nothing else, consider it.

Posting an "I hate it," I have no idea why anyone would bother doing that. As an author, if someone were to post negative criticism of a fic of mine, I guess I'd read it, decide if I thought their opinion had merit, if it did, probably respond, and if not, I'd ignore it. If they just say "OMG I hate it," who the fuck cares? I don't. That's so meaningless.

Disagreement, which is different from a "review," because I did not "review" that fic, happens constantly in any interactive publishing medium. It has nothing at all to do with fandom or fanfic or LJ. It happens on email lists and forums, in "post a response" sections of online news sites, it happens to me everywhere I publish interactively, that people object or argue or whatever. I take each comment on its own merits. I would do the same with my fiction.

To be honest, I've only rarely gotten any comments that had negative components. I probably wouldn't like it, but if the people weren't people whose opinions I respected, and/or the criticism wasn't something I agreed with, I'd just let it go.

Then again, I'm a professional writer and I've been doing this for a long time. Even though I invest emotionally in my work, I'm not my work. Frankly, I'd find it more personal being criticized for my opinions than my fiction.